The Cliff

The Cliff

Transitioning Conversations to Spiritual Conversations

Pastor Doug Beutler

When I first went into the ministry with Youth for Christ I went to Michigan for a training.  At that training they took us on a high ropes course.  We climbed this tower and got connected to a harness and a rope and told to “jump”.  As I was standing on the edge of that tower, 75 feet in the air, I was terrified.  They kept encouraging me to step off the platform but I was so scared.  Finally, I said to myself, “I can do this!” and so I stepped off.  It was invigorating as I went down the rope on a pulley to the other side of the ravine.  When I got unhooked I was surprised by my reaction…I was ready to go again.

When transitioning normal every day conversations into spiritual conversations I think it is a little like my experience at the high ropes course, “Jumping off the cliff”.  We are so fearful of what is going to happen next if we bring up Jesus, or church, or Christians.  Many times we just avoid the whole thing.  We walk away from opportunity after opportunity to start a spiritual conversation because of this fear.  Guilt and shame follow quickly and we avoid the whole topic completely.

Jesus was a master at turning a normal conversation into a spiritual conversation.  A great example of this was when Jesus called His first disciples in John 1.  I think we see 3 steps that Jesus took to transition a conversation into a spiritual conversation.

Step 1 is Jesus drew them in by showing them what they wanted to know. John 1:38b-39

These two disciples were following Jesus and He turns to them and asks them, “What do you seek?”  They respond by asking Jesus where He was staying.  Did they really want to know where Jesus was staying?  Probably not but they wanted to break the ice.  Jesus says, “Come and See”.   So what did these three talk about for several hours?  It doesn’t say but if we dig deep into the scriptures we will see some hints.  In verse 39 it says, “So they went and saw where he was staying…”  I think Jesus began by talking to them about where He was staying.  Jesus started with what they were curious about.

Today, this is a perfect example of how we begin conversations with people we are trying to reach.  We start with where they are.  What are they interested in?  Sports and music are somewhat safe – politics and government are not.  What is their background?  Where do they work?  How long have they worked there?  Are they married?  Do they have a Family?  What do they like the most about their house they live in?  Do they own or rent? Do we know the answers to these questions about our neighbors, people we work next to, friends at school, or people who we meet while you are working out? 

I met with a pastor the other day and I talked to him about this very thing. When I went through the list he stopped me and said, “Stop there.  I feel terrible!!”  I asked, “Why”.  He said, “Because I don’t know any of these answers about my neighbors.”  “No shame here,” I responded, “but that is where you need to begin.”  I would say this to you also.  Do you know the people around you?

Step 2 is Jesus discussed with them John's comment.  John 1:36-37 

Even though there is nothing mentioned about their discussion it does say that “They spent the day with Him”.  I think we might be able to make a logical step here.  The reason they started following Jesus was because of something John the Baptist had said.  In verse 35 John the Baptist said this while Jesus passed by, “Look the Lamb of God!” I think that is where Jesus went next.  John the Baptist the day before made this same statement in verse 29.  John gives testimony to this as a witness that Jesus was the Son of God…the Messiah.  Jesus uses their curiosity to transition the conversation to spiritual things. They want to know why John the Baptist said this.  The door was wide open for Jesus to speak spiritual truth to them.  I believe Jesus answered their questions.  I believe Jesus explained why John the Baptist’s words were true.

Turning a conversation into a spiritual conversation is the hardest and most difficult transition in having a spiritual conversation. This is when Jesus becomes part of the conversation.  One of the easiest ways to transition the conversation to spiritual things is to include them in your everyday life. Tell them you are going to a LifeGroup, Sunday Worship Service, or a Church event and then let them ask questions as you let their curiosity lead them.  My wife is a master at this.  She is not pushy. She doesn’t have the spiritual gift of evangelism but she loves kids and what do mom’s love to talk about…their kids.  She can talk for hours about kids. I have watched her disarm the most hostile person.  We had a neighbor once that was not walking with Jesus.  She swore like a sailor.  She had 2 little kids and she had lots of questions about raising them.  She came from a dysfunctional childhood and they would sit out in the back yard talking about their kids as they played together.  She found out that Kim was a pastor’s wife.  That didn’t scare her away.  The Holy Spirit was moving.  One day she ran over to our house and said, “I need to talk to your wife now!”  I told her that Kim would be right back.  When Kim got home she went across the street.  Their pet fish had died and she didn’t know how to talk to her kids about death.  Kim explained about death and life.  Then Kim transitioned the conversation to spiritual things when she started talking about humans and where we go.  Our neighbor starting asking all kinds of questions and Kim patiently answered all her religious questions. This hard non-Christian was having multiple spiritual conversations with Kim.

Step 3 is Jesus delivered the "why".  John 1:40-41

I want you to notice what happens in verse 41.  The first thing Andrew does was go find his brother Simon.  Listen to what he told him.  “We have found the Messiah”.  Andrew believed.  He trusted John the Baptist’s testimony about Jesus.  He believed Jesus’ explanation.  He didn’t understand everything but he understood enough to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  This was all God.  The Holy Spirit was opening up Andrew and John’s minds.  The darkness was gone in their souls.  They could see the light.  They were convinced not because of Jesus’ arguments but because of the supernatural thing that was happening.       

Today the Holy Spirit is still moving in people.  We don’t have to worry about if we can argue effectively.  We don’t have to worry about if we have all the answers.  We don’t to have to worry about if we know the bible well enough.  It is not about those things.  It is about the Holy Spirit moving through us.  That is why it is so important that we are maturing and growing in our faith.  That is why I am getting so upset about what is being said about the church.  I think leaders are taking the Holy Spirit and His ability to move out of all their conclusions.  Since we can’t put on a show like the world why do it?  What about how the Holy Spirit moves through God’s people worshiping?  Since most pastors are not eloquent in speaking why have a sermon?  But what about the Holy Spirit that drives those points home to the listener?  I would challenge these leaders that maybe the reason people are leaving the church today is not because we are trying to compete with the world and failing, or our quality is not competitive, or our sermons are so inferior.  But maybe the reason people are leaving the church is that we are not allowing the Holy Spirit to move because of our sin of selfishness, pride, and obsession within our pursuit of innovation and earthly success. 

Getting back to our neighbor and my wife.  Kim had these conversations with our neighbor for months.  Halloween came and went.  Thanksgiving came and went.  Then Christmas comes and Kim invites her to our Christmas Eve service.  She came with her family.  That service I presented the plan of salvation and our neighbor accepted Jesus that night along with her children.  Kim continued to meet with her and disciple her until she moved away several years later. 

This is a reminder that the Holy Spirit can do the impossible and it doesn’t have to depend on me, my ability, my style, or my polished presentation.  Jesus can do anything He wants to do we just need to be available and willing to follow Him completely.  He will open up the conversations and lead us into spiritual conversations.

Wanted Dead or Alive

Wanted Dead or Alive: Building Healthy Disciple Making Relationships

Pastor Doug Beutler

John Bon Jovi recorded a song that was released in 1996 called Wanted Dead or Alive. It describes the unhealthy relationship that a rock star has with his fans. The love-hate difficulties, the pressure to produce, and the fickleness of fans. Pastors, disciple-makers, and people who deal with people can relate to this song. Not that we are stars but the difficulty in dealing with people has driven many away from making disciples. As one pastor put it, “If it wasn’t for people I would love my job.”

The goal of disciple-makers is not to build unhealthy relationships. Unhealthy relationships lead to co-dependency, jealousy, and immaturity. Healthy relationships are characterized by unconditional love, patience, commitment, and honesty. So how can pastors and people build healthy disciple-making relationships? I think we need to look to Jesus and see how He built healthy disciple-making relationships.

 I think there are 4 things that Jesus did in building healthy disciple-making relationships:

 1)     He took time to be in public.

 We see a very interesting picture in John 1 when John the Baptist says, “Look the lamb of God!” (John 1:36) Then the apostle John records in that same verse that this happened while Jesus was passing by. What was Jesus doing? Where was He going? What was He trying to accomplish? I think Jesus’ goal was to be with people. Jesus didn’t hide in His office and wait for people to come to Him. He went out and was with people. He was just passing by having conversations with people who were willing to talk with Him.   

I am always amazed when I hear pastors who never leave their office. Either they are studying or they are meeting people in their office. I don’t want to downplay the value of studying for Sunday sermons but we know that in today’s culture, people generally would rather sit and have a coffee conversation than listen to us stand on a stage and speak to them.

https://www.ncconversations.com/single-post/2019/02/20/how-not-to-preach-to-millennials-part-one

 It is important to be out there with the people if we are going to be disciple-makers. I know how hard it is to work all day then come home and just want to stay home and “veg”. But if we want to make disciples then we need to be out with people. We do this within our situations. If we are single we can go any time, if we are married we coordinate with our spouse’s schedule so they can go, if we have a family we take them with us so our children can learn how to make disciples.

 I had a person walk up to me recently at church and say that they had “one of those moments that you talk about”. I said, “What happened?” They said that they went into a Meijer’s store and were greeted by the greeter. The person from my church asked, “How are you doing?” and the greeter said, “Not good”. The person from my church meant to respond, “I will pray for you” but instead they said, “Can I pray for you right now?” It’s amazing how the Holy Spirit works. The greeter said, “Yes”. So the person from my church prayed for them right there and they said, “It was awesome.”

 2)     He noticed people around Him.

 After John the Baptist said, “Look the lamb of God” two disciples started following Jesus. These disciples were curious. Was this the Lamb of God? Was He the Messiah? They had so many questions. So they followed Jesus hoping to get a chance to talk to Him. What is amazing is what happens next. Jesus notices them. He notices them following Him.

 I am amazed at how many people out there today who want to be noticed. Someone to say, “I see you”. We live in a fast-paced culture that can be very uncaring. It can make people feel like they are insignificant and unnoticed. I think it is ironic that we live in a culture where there are more opportunities to interact with people worldwide through social media than ever but we are also one of the most lonely cultures.

https://mcc.gse.harvard.edu/reports/loneliness-in-america-2024

 We forget how powerful it is to notice people. To acknowledge that they are there. To reach out with a smile. I remember walking by a person in the store and I smiled at them and I saw their eyes light up as they smiled back. Take a look around at the people you pass every day. Are they ok? Are they discouraged, sad, or depressed? Take a moment to pray for them and smile as you walk by.

 3) He interacted with people by asking questions.

 Not only did Jesus notice the 2 disciples but he took the next step and interacted with them. The way Jesus interacted with them was He asked them a question. He asks, “What do you want?” Does Jesus not know? Of course, He does. He can see their hearts. They are seeking something…someone. So Jesus engaged them in a conversation by asking a question that was not closed-ended. He doesn’t ask them, “Do you want something?” Jesus asked them to explain why they were following Him. It was designed to take the conversation to the next level. They respond by asking, “Rabbi, where are you staying?” Did they want to know where Jesus was staying? I don’t see it that way. I think they were looking for an open door to connect with Jesus.

 Today people are asking the same questions. Many of them are asking Why am I here? What is my purpose? How did I get here? What happens after death? So how do seekers get around to asking these questions? By us asking questions. Having a spirit of curiosity is a powerful tool in building healthy relationships. Where are you from? Did you go to college? How long have you been living here? What are some of your hobbies? Are you married? These are just a few of the questions that your spirit of curiosity can lead you to.

 A friend of mine, who I am discipling, and I have been meeting in an Applebee’s for lunch. For several years we have grown to know a bartender there. He always serves our table and takes our orders for lunch. He is outgoing so I asked him some questions. What does he like about being a bartender? How long he had been a bartender? Where have you worked as a bartender? Those questions opened up a door for some very interesting future spiritual conversations.

 4)     He spent significant time with people.

 Jesus tells those disciples to come and you will see. So they went to where Jesus was staying and then something is recorded that is extremely important. “And they spent that day with him.” They spent the whole day with Jesus. No watching the clock, no deadlines to meet, no next place to go. Jesus just sat down and spent some time with these two disciples.

 People today are always in a hurry. The next place to go, the next project to work on, the next person to see. We can inadvertently make people feel like they are not important or that we are not reliable. No one wants to be the second thought or the second choice. Relationships take time. They need to be prioritized. We need to realize that relationships need a long runway to earn trust and credibility. 

I started meeting with Billy (not his real name) 9years ago. Billy was a Veteran and was suffering from PTSD. His wife and children were going to my church but he was not. He was not a Christian. He would come to Christmas and Easter services to appease his wife. One day I asked him to go for lunch which he did. We talked about the Chicago Bears, Ft. Wayne Komets, Chicago Cubs, and White Sox. That lunch turned into a weekly lunch. After a couple of years, he came to me and asked me if I would be willing to talk to him about his PTSD. He did not like his therapist and he had asked his Psychiatrist if he could meet with me instead. I told him, “I know nothing about PTSD but I would be happy to listen.” He said that would be fine. That was 9 years ago and last year he accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior. But that’s another story I’ll share on a different day.

 We don’t approach relationships like “Wanted Dead or Alive”. We approach them as people we notice while we live our lives and ask questions as we spend intentional time with them.